Tehfonz
(xfire: sideways29) 

Posts: 55
09:42 AM 19/07/2012

FANTASTICHE!

First off, hello again Snakelet and Falcar, and everyone else that i knew that're still lurking here. ;P

Anyway, as the title says I have a handful of questions. Some are semi-personal and some are not, why do I want to question you guys?

Well first off, *cue the cool story, bro* this year is my last year of school and as a lot of people do they study at Tafe/University. I'm planning on making video games my future despite many people in the industry saying "You really don't want to do that" or at least make them as a hobby if I fail on this route, as i've finalised the fact that i'll most likely never be truely satisfied with my life if i don't do this at some point.

Sadly, i'm starting from the ground up, I have no types of skills and knowledge that compliments the process of game making. To be more exact, I have no knowledge of the common requirements that many people urge you to have, specifically Maths B and others.

Now, i've looked around many places on the interwebs and most things that I've read are more and so negative, they warn about bad pays, tight work schedules, open jobs being scarce and also hard to get. Sadly, I guessed it was going to be bad at this day and age...

You guys (as far as i know) are not apart of a large video game company, which is pretty much the reason why I wanted to ask you guys a few questions, I want some insight from people who're not apart of the video game industry and I was hoping you guys could grant me insight on how it's like making/modding games, even if you guys do it as a hobby.

As for how im going to start making video games, the plan is to get a tutor to teach me the required math, I have 3 months to do this before the courses start, I can the courses at a later date if neccesary. After I feel that I have the general knowledge ill study at Qantm College Brisbane, doing 3 courses focused on Game Design, Animation and Programming, this will take a total of 6+ years to complete. Also, im doing the courses for the knowledge, not the certs.

So theres that, here are the questions. I'd appreciate it a lot if one of you can take the time to do this. They're some questions that're off topic so its not all just about modding/making games. Hopefully my questions make sense. D:

- Is modding/making video games something you (hope to) do mainly or is just a hobby?

• If hobby, what do you do for a living?

- How did you find modding Obscurity, was it mainly fun or just merely frustrating?

- Has making and updating Obscurity taught you a lot of things and has it improved your skills noticeably?

- Did you study at a Institution (e.g. University) for your knowledge, or are you self-taught?

• If studied at an Institution, what courses did you do and would you recommend it?
• What skills and knowledge did you have when you started pursuing game making?

- How long have you've been making/modding video games?

• How many years have you been releasing your mods/games to the public?

- Whats the story between you two? how did you guys meet?

• How long have you two been friends for?

- Have you got some of  your knowledge outside of Institutions? (e.g books) If so, is there anything you can recommend to me?

- What have you regretted the most when you were studying and/or making/modding games?

- What do you think of my plans? Is there something I should avoid doing or is there something else I should do?

- Now with most of that in the way, are you planning on doing new projects once you're done with Obscurity? You guys seem keen on making a mod for Skyrim. ;P

Ill may add more questions, but right now im fine with this. ;3 Once again, i would appreciate it if you could answer some of these questions. :)

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
01:00 PM 19/07/2012

I will do my best...here goes:

- Is modding/making video games something you (hope to) do mainly or is just a hobby?
Personally, I would love to make a living making games. I grew up loving video games. Basically I broke my leg in grade 4 and my mate lent me his Master System with Sonic. Since then I have been hooked. During uni (RMIT B Arts - Games Graphics Design) I believed I wanted to work at a big game developer studio (Applied for Krome, Blue Tongue, etc). After having not much luck there (Krome interview was probably the best I got) I grabbed any job I could find and started making games etc in my spare time and managed to hook Falcar along for the ride (cue Obscurity). Now, I will say this, if you want to get work at a game developer, there is a much higher demand for programmers.

At this stage in time it is a hobby, but if I could ever make money from it, I would definately try. I would love to be able to do it as a full time thing BUT, I no longer think I could work at a large studio. Now it's more something I would prefer to do with some mates or by myself. I like to have a lot of creative freedom, which I doubt I could get in a large business.

• If hobby, what do you do for a living?
  As for what I do for a living, I work for Sensis (Yellow/White Pages) creating business profile pages, art, keying contracts etc. Basically getting advertiser's businesses up onto the Sensis websites.

- How did you find modding Obscurity, was it mainly fun or just merely frustrating?
A bit of both. The most frustrating thing for me is probably just finding a time to mod that suits both of us. I can usually find something to do and spam Falcar when the going is slow. Learning the engine was frustrating, mostly because there was not much out there to help us with the stuff we wanted to achieve (cue torches and obscurity distortion shader). This meant and still means a lot of experimentation/trial and error, but when stuff succeeds it is VERY SATISFYING. It is also a great feeling to know that so many people out there enjoy your creation and effort you put into it by playing it for so long, which is why we still mod it. Thanks guys :)

Overall, knowing that others appreciate your efforts is probably the best thing.

- Has making and updating Obscurity taught you a lot of things and has it improved your skills noticeably?
It has definately taught me a lot of things. Firstly, working with Falcar has greatly improved my knowledge of programming (I still suck at maths) and also my bug testing ability (Falcar hates this one). You need to keep your skills fresh if you want to retain the knowledge, so modding helped me further the basics I learnt at uni. I am still working on my 3D modelling skills, which currently doesn't really affect Obscurity, but it is something I want to improve.

Another thing it helped with is probably research and troubleshooting. I did plenty of this (love you Google & Youtube). I have noticed I am also much more persistant. I will try and try again until Falcar says "It is 100% not possible" for probably the 100th time, then I will think of something harder to implement. It took me a year or so to get the Obscurity Distortion working, but that was thanks to a little inhouse competition Falcar and I had going. Basically you get this thing done and I'll get this thing done. I think I may have won that one :)

- Did you study at a Institution (e.g. University) for your knowledge, or are you self-taught?
A bit of both I think. Mostly self taught though.

• If studied at an Institution, what courses did you do and would you recommend it?
  RMIT B Arts Games Graphics Design. It is not a bad course, they have 3 streams (Games Programming, Games Design & Digital Art) and they merge a few from each group into a team to work on some cool game creation projects. There was also a lot of stuff I didn't need to learn, but had to. I believe for a starter it is a good course, but if you have plenty of knowledge in programming or graphics design than it is too easy. It was basically smooth sailing for me everything except for Apache Server Management. I did however work on some cool projects such as Unearth (standalone ogre engine game) and Ninjaz: Zenkai Warriors/Alien Swarm mods (UT2004 Mods).
• What skills and knowledge did you have when you started pursuing game making?
  I knew how to use photoshop and other image editing software, maya, macromedia flash (made flash games through high school), basic programming knowledge thanks to that. Basically I knew how to do a lot of design stuff. I also knew how to play games (I love you N64).

- How long have you've been making/modding video games?
Probably since late primary school when I started dabbling in making Flash games and animations (Newgrounds ftw)

- Whats the story between you two? how did you guys meet?
I started dating Falcar's sister, who is now my wife.

• How long have you two been friends for?
  Almost 9 years.

- Have you got some of  your knowledge outside of Institutions? (e.g books) If so, is there anything you can recommend to me?
Flash, Maya books on animating and modelling, knowledgeable programming and IT friends, google, youtube and internet. Basically nothing to really recommend. You can get anything you want on the web nowadays.

- What have you regretted the most when you were studying and/or making/modding games?
Perhaps spending a little too much time making/modding games. It is very addictive when you want to achieve a goal, which means sometimes you neglect those around you, or yourself.

- What do you think of my plans? Is there something I should avoid doing or is there something else I should do?
I think you should follow what you want to do and ignore what others think. It sounds like you want to go the programming route, which is a very good idea. If you fail to break into the industry, you still have a huge amount of other avenues you can persue with the knowledge you gain from learning programming. It is an IT world we live in, therefore there will always be a need for programmers. Just do what you really want to do, listen to those who care about you, but ultimately the decision is something you have to make yourself. I guess, if you want to be rich, there are probably better ways to go, but if you want to enjoy your job than money should not be a major factor other than something that you need to get by with day by day. Also, Indie Games are huge nowadays, which is awesome for those who can't get into those huge game developers.

- Now with most of that in the way, are you planning on doing new projects once you're done with Obscurity? You guys seem keen on making a mod for Skyrim. ;P
I am currently brushing up on my 3D skills and have got a few ideas about what I want to do next. There is a fair few hints on the Obscure Creations FB page already. I may need to learn programming a fair bit better too. As fo Skyrim, we were keen and we did make a few small mods, but nothing we released. It has sort of died off now. Personally I want to make a stand alone game, so my focus is currently on  building the skills and knowledge I need for that.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do and hopefully this was at least a slightly interesting read for you.

Ninja
(xfire: zacbash) 

Posts: 64
02:17 PM 19/07/2012

Cool, nice to hear that from you Snakelet. It was also interesting for me what you have written - although I don't want into the gaming industry.

I didn't know that this distortion shader is something so complicated (probably because you are tied to the mod interface CoD4 gives you). I think most have given up after some days if they had not got some little success. But probably not attempted up to one year to get this done. I'm suprised. 

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
01:13 AM 20/07/2012

Once I worked it out, it was easy. The thing is though, that there was really nowhere to find any information on it so it took a lot of trial/error/experimentation to get it to work. Also, it wasn't like a year of working on it non-stop, but rather a year overall between attempting it and actually succeeding. There was plenty of failures and time when I wanted to just forget about it. I think it was really when WAW was realised that I truly began to work out just how to make it work.

Glad you enjoyed the read too.

Tehfonz
(xfire: sideways29) 

Posts: 55
12:54 PM 20/07/2012

Thanks Snakelet for responding, and for the interesting read. ;)

Falcar
(xfire: seamusthefamous) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 526
07:08 AM 22/07/2012

Lies Snakelet, we both won the in-house competition about the distortion shader :D

My end of the deal was the day/night cycles - which are now also a major foundation of Obscurity ;)

Falcar
(xfire: seamusthefamous) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 526
08:00 AM 22/07/2012

Is modding/making video games something you (hope to) do mainly or is just a hobby?

Definitely just a hobby at this stage - I'd love to work on games full-time as a career but I need a more stable route to make a living at the moment. I'm finishing up my university course this year, then plan on working full-time immediately after that.

Super-unrealistic-dream-plan would be to continue working on games as a hobby (I should be able to dedicate more time to it at some stage) while working in a stable job full-time, and transfer to making games full time when it picks up enough momentum.

How did you find modding Obscurity, was it mainly fun or just merely frustrating?

Modding Obscurity was both; incredibly fun and rewarding, but the limitations on the engine were also infuriating. The fun parts definitely outweight the struggle though - and despite the seven or so engine limitations Obscurity is currently restricted by, I still think we've managed to squeeze a lot in.

Has making and updating Obscurity taught you a lot of things and has it improved your skills noticeably?

Working on Obscurity has definitely taught me a lot about programming... in the first versions my scripts were all in one huge mess: they worked, but they weren't very tidy or flexible. Now everything is modular, which is why parts of it are so easy to port from hitloc to obscurity and vice versa.

It's also been a very helpful experience in learning about the less thought-about aspects of making games, in particular:
-The importance of game balance
-The struggle with testing updates (which I still mess up all the time :) )
-Haters gon' hate, every addition you make you'll have someone whinging about how you should put it back to how it was 

Did you study at a Institution (e.g. University) for your knowledge, or are you self-taught?

I'm currently at university, graduating the Bachelor of Information Technology this year. It's a business & technology oriented course, and I've taken the technical path in electives. I haven't found the course to be too helpful from a technical perspective, as I already had most of the programming knowledge. The business skills have been helpful, but not towards making computer games.

I wouldn't recommend it if you're interested in focussing on video games: it is much more geared towards business (with compulsary subjects such as accounting and project management).

How long have you've been making/modding video games?

I've been modding video games as long as I've been playing them - I used to make levels for Descent II, then progressed to making levels and mods for Descent III (which is where I learnt a lot about 3D modelling). After that I started making levels and new gameplay elements in Thief: Dark Project, and then moved on to modding Morrowind.

Have you got some of  your knowledge outside of Institutions? (e.g books) If so, is there anything you can recommend to me?

Most of my knoweldge if self-taught, so I can't recommend any good resources.

I taught myself how to mod cod4, after reading a tutorial that showed me how to compile mods for it. From there we started with basic mods (the first of which being baltwk), and gradually added more and more complexity as we went.

I did already know several programming languages (from high school) which helped, a good programming language to start learning with is BASIC in visual studio.

What have you regretted the most when you were studying and/or making/modding games?

It's not a huge regret, but the biggest in regards to modding would probably be not taking full advantage of modding Obscurity when it was in its peak. Back when it was being hosted on 20+ servers worldwide and active all day in Aus, we could have worked on it a lot more and had some of the cool stuff we have today (which although awesome, is less appreciated because there's less of an audience).

I was busy with year 12 (final year of high school) at the time, so it was probably a good thing I didn't spend too much time on it. But nevertheless, it would have been cool :)

What do you think of my plans? Is there something I should avoid doing or is there something else I should do?

I agree with Snakelet, you should focus on what you're interested in because that's what you're going to be most successful doing.

However six years is a long time to spend studying, and will take a lot of dedication to finish. The most pressing problem would be making sure you have support from your family to spend such a long time studying full time (ie without income), so you don't get stuck halfway through when they kick you out :) (which is exactly what my parents would do haha). Personally I would investigate avenues to shorten the duration of your study, either doing more subjects at a time or dropping one of the streams you've selected.

Maths as a discipline is good to know- but I doubt having no experience with advanced maths will put you at a disadvantage. Unless you're doing technical programming (like making physics engines etc), you should be fine. The most important area of maths you might struggle with without any prior knowledge is trigonometry. Also if you have the time, get a basic understanding of vectors (unavoidable when working with 2d or 3d motion etc)

Now with most of that in the way, are you planning on doing new projects once you're done with Obscurity? You guys seem keen on making a mod for Skyrim. ;P

I'm not sure if we'll release any mods for Skyrim. After modding multiplayer games we're hooked, I don't think there's any going back for Snakelet and myself; singleplayer games just aren't as interesting to mess around with. We are tinkering with some things, but both of us have pretty busy lives so it could be a while before anything is revealed.

May have to review and make some changes to this, but hopefully I've answered some of your questions :P

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
03:16 AM 24/07/2012

Further projects:
-Implement motion capture technology into workflow for more realistic animations (in progress/not related to a specific project or mod...yet)
-Relearn UDK and check out CryEgine capabilites and commercial licensing terms.

Tehfonz
(xfire: sideways29) 

Posts: 55
02:02 AM 25/07/2012

Once again, Thank you both for responding to this, much appreciated.

And yeah, 6 years is a long time and will cost a lot of money. Each course is about $40k approx for 2 years, however the whole course is about 3 years worth of studying which seems cool. they also have other facilities worldwide so they seem promising.

My parents are pretty wealthy luckily, My Dad's a Doctor (general practioner) and my Mum owns a massaging business which at the moment seems to be doing good so far. Shes currently trying to move the business someplace else and has found an area for lease that looks ideal, the people who own the area haven't responded however. Hopefully nothing horribly unexpected happens to her business while im studying.

While im at it, im planning on getting a job related to Hospitality as I have been doing the courses for it, so it would be a waste if i didn't put them to use. and im sure you all agree that it's not exactly a good idea to study for 6 years and do nothing as a side.

Other then that, nothing can be straightforward so if i have to ill change things. Although I don't think i have much to worry about, only the fact that my parents wealth can go down a huge drain due to moms business.

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
02:46 AM 25/07/2012

I would strongly suggest looking into any scholarships the uni is offering for the courses also and applying for them. Scholarships can be VERY handy if you can get your hands on them. They can save you lots of money and are therefore worth the effort.

muddlehead
(xfire: cnoe00) 

Posts: 19
02:06 PM 02/10/2012

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
06:00 AM 03/10/2012

Hmmm

I will have to see if I still have a redistributable copy of Obs v1 somewhere. We didn't really release it outside of a few clan servers.

You can find some videos of Obs v1 on www.youtube.com/Snakelet
This one seems to be the most popular video of it: http://youtu.be/kRoNjVGv2f4 (This video shows those first person hand wounds and burnt corpses also)

muddlehead
(xfire: cnoe00) 

Posts: 19
03:14 PM 04/10/2012

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
03:52 PM 04/10/2012

I had a quick look and I should be able to find them...just have to sort through them all to find the most stable one. I will try to it sometime this weekend and upload them onto the downloads page.

muddlehead
(xfire: cnoe00) 

Posts: 19
05:26 PM 04/10/2012

Snakelet
(xfire: snakelet) 

OBS Dev 

Posts: 1330
04:15 PM 05/10/2012

We are working on Obscurity final release currently, but I cannot give a timeframe as to when it will be complete as both Falcar and I are very busy. It is hard to coordinate time to work on it together, therefore the going is slow. We do however want to get a final version out to you all.